"I don't like the compiler yelling at me."
My sister in RISC, that's the compiler's main job.

Sometimes I feel like the people who most dislike strong type systems, safety features or what have you that restricts a subset of behaviors are people who just fundamentally hate being told "no". It doesn't matter if it is "no, but you can do this other thing".

@ekuber sometimes i feel like the people who dislike strong type systems are the people who use them and want them to be better.

@dysfun The kind of discussions that come from that are way more interesting to me.

@ekuber IMO they just haven't debugged enough wicked runtime errors yet

@ekuber I think you might be taking them too literally here. They could mean that the IDEs for these languages are constantly recompiling and trying to alert them to the fact that their code does not compile during periods they already know it isn't going to compile and they don't need it to compile. It can be very distracting.

@dvogel there might be people with that gripe, but it is not the one I see most commonly. There are people that see a type error as equivalent to kicking their dog. They probably are not a huge crowd, but it is a crowd I fail to fully understand.

@buherator For a subset of them? I think they *enjoy* that. Its a difficult puzzle. I can relate to that. Don't think anyone wants to do that under a time pressure when life and limb are at stake, though.

@ekuber When arguing for safety features, I’ve had the retort “well maybe you’re just a bad programmer” thrown in my face way too often. Happy for those people that they have never made a mistake in their life, but even they can’t make a whole project solo, so you’d think they’d at least appreciate those things keeping other project members in check.

@Nyan I asked one person like that "do you wear a seat belt?" only to be yelled back at "I CUT THE SEAT BELTS IN MY CAR IF I WANT". That was an easy block.

@ekuber

... Thus far, it has been my experience that 'those' people resist structure in general.

They don't seem to like rules.

Which is _wild_ considering that's _literally_ all software is.

@401matthall
This suspicion is haunting me for a long time, too.
@ekuber

@yala

It sounds judgey but I don't _mean_ it that way. I've just noticed those tend to be the same folks that want to store data in a json blob or in a document store like Mongo.

That's _fine_ but... It's not because they _reasoned_ their way there. It just lets them defer hard decisions.

I'm of the opinion that _hard_ decisions is literally what we do.

Not everybody feels that way. <shrug>

@ekuber

@401matthall @yala I wouldn't want to paint everyone with the same brush, but that subset does exist.

@ekuber @dysfun I feel we still need to improve on tooling - e.g. add/remove a generic type or a lifetime to a Rust struct? That's gonna be a lot of manual work which could imho mostly be done by an IDE. And maybe some people lose their patience over it, I certainly sometimes do.

@dngrs @dysfun 100%. Mechanical refactoring should become trivial. Specially for conceptually similar things that are syntactically very different (turning a reference into an Arc, at a minimum).

@ekuber I also feel like there's an implicit interpretation here:

"This inanimate construct, which is not printing text with e.g. all caps or exclamation points, is *yelling.*"

Which... that's probably not coming from the compiler, unfortunately. Projection isn't just for struct fields.

@dngrs @dysfun I'm very receptive to "feature requests"/"bug reports", even if presented in an assholish way. Behind most gripes there's an underlying problem that can be addressed. I get that people get frustrated in the immediacy of a problem. But, after Twitter, I decided that I can spend my time listening to people who don't *only* gripe. If something is a problem for one, it will be a problem for another, so I don't need to spend time being berated by people who seem to get off on conflict and can just wait for the problem to be surfaced by somebody else who isn't a drain on my day.

@cliffle 100%
Its funny because it is independent of the text itself. "Syntax error on line 1" and nothing else might as well be "fuck off, good luck", but just as clinical text with proper context sufficient to understand the problem isn't. But the latter can be read as the former, if you wanted to.

@ekuber @dysfun for sure - even if a gripe is valid that doesn't entitle someone to a one-sided flame war. Maybe some people are best served with a canned reply like "if you want to improve things, the issue tracker is over here ➡️, if you just wanna vent that's fine too but then I won't engage any further"

@dngrs @dysfun I have filed tickets for those people myself, purely to avoid accidentally siccing them on the issue tracker, if I can understand the problem without further interaction.