If you want me to hate you forever, a good way to do this is to share sample code as a isolated function in a blockquote, which produces a dozen 'symbol not found' errors when punched into actual code because you *didn't* include a blockquote containing the half-dozen #include or `using` or `import` statements that would be needed to bring the various API calls and types you reference into scope

@mcc "use an IDE"

@SoniEx2 that is not going to happen, also IDEs are generally not AGI-complete and are not necessarily going to be able to find what you're looking for

@mcc so I do this on purpose sometimes when I am constructing a running narrative about a piece of code and interspersing the commentary about each chunk of it, and now you are making me second-guess this practice. Maybe you wouldn’t hate me because when I do this I also provide a link to download a full runnable example though?

@mcc I had a related case the other day where I kept squinting at code examples for like half an hour until I realized that (and this is SHOCKINGLY badly explained in official documentation) the way you import a module in Lua, at least in some contexts, is not just require('foo') but rather foo = require('foo')

@bruno i regret to inform you this depends on the module

@glyph so that would help but i would *recommend*, in this case, if it's a narrative, including the `using` block at the top of your narrative. you could use css to collapse it, if you think it damages the reader's flow.

there are two problems with "code fragments, then here's the example code": a reader in a hurry might have trouble finding the example code; and also the example code and the blog post might drift.

@glyph in the case i'm bothered with right now, there's a 'narrative' style set of code fragments, and there's a full sample code. but the code fragments in the 'narrative' don't appear verbatim in the sample code. and the sample code is about thirty files, maybe eight of which actually demonstrate the core subject from the "narrative", & the other 22 are basically UI for a demo. so i have the snippet of code i need HERE and then over here I have THIRTY UNSORTED FILES and I can't connect A to B.

@mcc hmm. I *usually* put the imports at the top. I might have to audit some of them to make sure I'm consistent about it; I agree that it's better.

In my case there is no drift between example and post text though, because I use sphinx directives or custom scripts / SSG plugins to pull lines from the example rather than inlining it.

@mcc okay I can't promise I have *never* elided an import but it would definitely damage my self-image if I discovered I'd ever let it get this bad

@glyph it seems like if you are pulling lines from the example and/or generating examples from the blog post then import drift would become quite unlikely?

there's another thing; say an article *included* imports, but they were missing something. that to me would be a simple error (forgivable) and something i know how to report to the blog author. "i wrote a blog post but didn't think about what experience the person who actually reads it would have" is harder to forgive.

@mcc sorry it's not that the imports would drift, it's that I might skip over them in the narrative, assuming that you'd download the full source if you cared about them. I haven't tried eliding an inline code box containing them behind some interaction like a disclosure triangle, which is what I'm assuming you're implying, that's definitely something to look at

@mcc indeed.

well, they mostly work fine for stuff in the classpath/include path/etc. but it still pisses us off when someone tells us to use IDEA.

unfortunately, with minecraft modding... what else are we to do. so we do, indeed, admit defeat and just use IDEA like everyone else.

@SoniEx2 @mcc Depends on the code. I love it when you have have code with a bunch of Event (IDEA suggests 7 different such classes), Position (6 classes).

Or, someone uses Value and you click on 'import' and get this:

@loke @SoniEx2 Yeah this is uh… also problematic in Rust, where it is idiomatic for, literally, every single module to have an export named Error and an export named Result. Not every API. Every module.

@glyph I'd probably include them inline, but my literate programming posts are a little *too* literate. the triangle might be a good readability compromise.

@glyph @mcc this is where literate programming can really shine. If the end result is supposed to be a fully runnable program, getting it from weaving the literate source should be it, which means that at least the relevant includes will be “there somewhere”

@mcc every Spring developer answering any question:

"you just add these 3 lines of code"

WHERE?!

@mcc my own bete noire, similarly: "here's some sample code that does the thing you're looking for … but that's wrong, here's a slightly better version that also does something else you don't want … but *that's* wrong, here's the full program, it's 300 lines and is completely different"

@fishidwardrobe if we're doing this, one thing i do really hate is when you are like "is there sample code for the c api?" and they're like "sure!" and they show you the sample code and instead of sample code for the c api it's a set of c++ wrapper classes for the c api

@buherator @mcc 💯 code and config - this experience is painfully familiar 😅

"I also want to know: WWWHHHEEERRREEE!?!?!!!11!!" Feels good to have an outlet in this post and finally react to those situations.

@buherator @mcc just anywhere, doesn't matter

@buherator @mcc
This also applies to Laravel ...

@ghosttie @mcc I guess you are right. On the grand scale of things the Universe won't be bothered by my pathetic compile errors :,(

@buherator @mcc I'm going to design a programming language where like ordering is irrelevant, so the answer can be “anywhere”

@oblomov @mcc VibeLang? As in execution order depends on how the interpreter feels and all errors are handled somehow just to keep the thing going :)

@buherator @oblomov https://mastodon.social/@mcc/114162437965298156

@mcc @oblomov This sounds fun, you should get some VC funding!