I've seen people saying they don't include alt-text with their art/photos because they don't want to 'explain the meaning' of their work.

Alt text isn't for people who can see your images perfectly. It's for those who can't. Your desire to 'let the viewer decide the meaning' isn't more important than people's disability needs, and the alt text and meaning of the art are mutually exclusive. Get over yourself. If you have the spoons, add alt text. If you don't, use # Alt4Me or .

Expanding on 'the alt text and the meaning are mutually exclusive' - alt text isn't to say arty bollocks like 'this piece explores the relationship between emerging sexualities and romance tourism'. It's to literally describe the image. "An abstract piece using black and red lines of varying thickness that create a tangle of chaos increasing in density towards the center", for example, or "A soft hazy sunset over an empty beach at low tide under a pastel blue-orange sky".

@Curator
I don't like how much "I'm not using alt-text, because I wanna let my art speak for itself" sounds so stereotypical artist-like :'D

@Curator

I genuinely love the perspective of beginning with the overview description and working inward toward detail: format, media, genre, color, composition, subject, style, technique.

That way the user can determine at what level of detail they want to halt the readout while retaining a high-level understanding of the image.

@CrowquillGal Very much this!

@t_robinart It's very 'pretentious artist' XD

@Curator I think there is space for both objective and subjective descriptions personally. Obviously priority goes to the former, but if the description is for instance, saying that the juxtaposition or perspective or use of color implies something is actually useful when included at the end of the visual description.

@martyn People can absolutely do that if they want to, yeah. I often say 'the photo feels moody/cozy/ominous' etc. with my stuff. But it's not a requirement so there's no reason for people NOT to add alt-text if they want to steer away from 'explaining the meaning' of their art to someone.

@paulligas they can.

@Curator

@paulligas @jerry .art has a thing in our robots.txt file that blocks the crawler that Stable Diffusion gets its data from, at least.

@paulligas per the point of the original post, while it’s technically viable to do, i have to believe that the alt text is pretty unhelpful for training models due to the dubious quality of the alt text of many images. @Curator

@Curator "the alt text and meaning of the art are mutually exclusive." You have the attention of my heart. So, what is a useful description that does not anchor the work in place, time, etc.? Do I need to work on prose and poetry to accompany the work?

One of my favorites is Hiroshi Sugimoto
https://www.sugimotohiroshi.com/photogenic-drawing
An example is "Ligurian Sea, Saviore, 1993". How does one make effable something so ineffable? If there is useful alt text that doesn't undermine the work, you have me convinced.

@jerry @paulligas @Curator While I 100% support the intent of the demand for alt text on images, I recognize that I frequently fail to add it because I don't think about it when I post the image.

We are missing at least two important intermediate step.
1. A prompt for alt text when embedding the image. I won't pretend this will "fix" the image but at least force users to decide to ignore the alt text request every time they upload.
2. Before alt text can be a valuable data source for training sets, we need a mechanism to crowd source alt text on images posted to Mastodon.
3. Feature Creep: If we are building a crowd source content contribution and voting/resolution tool, perhaps someone wants to add crowd sourced fact checking/disinformation flagging.

@Curator As someone who spends WAY too much time in one's professional life wrestling with "use cases". Are there statements from alt text users of the text that THEY find useful. Poorly informed solutions are not well grounded.

@Curator @t_robinart Been there.. Valid.

@Curator If you want everyone to see your work you add alt text so that everyone can truly see your work. Not everyone sees in the same way. Some use screen readers because they can't view the screen with their eyes. By not including alt text, you lose a large part of your audience and there is maybe lost income too from potential buyers. Sorry, my day job is in Accessibility so I understand why we need alt text.

@Curator it's a cop out for people who aren't creative enough to describe their own art and want to put that burden on to their audience.

You can describe the image without describing any implied meaning.

@missmolotov Then they should use the hashtag or the emoji or just ask for help with it, heh.

@gallaimage You can't undermine the work for someone who can't see the work at all in the first place, and it's entirely okay to also add personal meaning to the piece if you *want* to, I'm just saying that it's not okay to use that as an excuse *not* to add alt text.

Personally I'd alt-text this as "A monotone image where a flat, dark body of water textured only by a slight ripple of waves is barely visible beneath a bank of heavy grey fog that dominates the scene." (cont)

@gallaimage For a 'known' piece of work, providing the title and artist means the reader can look up and further read about that piece of art on their own time, if they want to.

@Curator Thank you. I think I have what I need. I can riff on these examples.

@jonahstein @jerry @paulligas If you're using the web browser / web app, the image will have a '!No description added' warning across it. Other clients have similar things. You can also follow @PleaseCaption who will yell at you every time you post an image without alt-text, so you can go back and edit it. On .art we also have CSS that puts a dashed blue border around images without alt-text so they're easy to spot. If you don't want a border around your work, add alt text.

@gallaimage Yup, all the advice I give on how to write alt-text (https://mastodon.art/@Curator/109279035107793247) is based on feedback I've had from many blind and partially sighted friends and fedi users, and there are copious articles like https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/30/22587544/instagram-twitter-tiktok-accessibility-blind-low-vision out there that cover the topic :)

@HawkeLiath Backing this up by saying I've sold plenty of my very visual work to blind and partially sighted people because they had an idea of my work from the alt-text and thought it sounded pretty. ^.^

@Curator Thanks. I'll read these. I searched last weekend. Found a lot on accessibility, but not targeted to Mastodon or alt text authoring.

@gallaimage If you want specific examples of well written alt-text, I'm often thanked for mine when I post my stuff from WelshPixie. See https://wandering.shop/@mrszee/109925908918325703 from today, and https://mastodon.art/@welshpixie/109375747560676293 - I can't see the comment on it now but a blind person said the alt text was great and he could 'see' the image in his mind's eye (I think the image is also too old to load so I've attached it here with the same alt-text)

@Curator @gallaimage My own approach to alt text is to situate it somewhere between dry description and poetry.

@Curator I’ve begun to enjoy it really. It gives me a REASON to be overtly descriptive, something I have to resist the urge to do in my stories 🤣

@ScribblerRVA I enjoy it too - flexes the writing muscles :D

@Curator @paulligas @jerry Does SD actually respect it? I honestly assumed that when it came to robots.txt artbot crawlers would use it as a target list, not a "keep out" sign.

@pstewart @paulligas @jerry The crawler that SD uses respects it, yes (it's a generic crawler that's not specific to SD, it's just the one SD happens to use - called Common Crawl, see https://mastodon.gamedev.place/@Stealcase/109531062758118880 )

@I_Like_Books perfectly valid <3 ( @james I don't know if you have the emoji on your instance but feel free to copy from us!)

@Curator And I've also heard stories of blind parents who looked for artwork for their grown kids.

@Curator Thank you. Alt text can be as simple as "pen and ink nude" If you have the spoons to upload the image and toot you have the spoons to include a sinmple explanation to keep the Vision Impaired in the loop.

Including the Vision impaired is IMPERATIVE for me to boost or follow you.

@SusanHR Yeah - I keep saying that anything is better than the screenreader reading out the default 'image' (may vary by screenreader, I think) when there's no alt text.

@Curator Why is there a space in your post between the hashtag and letters... as in "# Alt4Me" When I post that, there should be no space between the hashtag and letters, correct?

@jonahstein @jerry @Curator @paulligas many clients do. The screen shot is from Tusky. Floss.social's web interface also does.

@Curator "get over yourself" is pretty ugly. Could have done without that.

@3DBill dismissing people's accessibility needs because you place a higher value on 'the meaning of your art' is pretty ugly too and nobody was calling *that* out.

@dannykean Correct - it's because the tag is used to ask for alt text which is not applicable to this post and it doesn't need to show up in hashtag searches for that tag, so I broke the tag.

@Curator
Thanks for reiterating this. I never used to add alt text to images, but now I understand the importance and strive to always do so.

Question though. Usually the images are for a short story. So should ai include the url to where the story will appear, or is that just self-promoting?

@mloxton I would put that in the body of the toot so that it's clickable, rather than the alt text :)

@Curator HOW DO PPL NOT KNOW THIS WHAT

@Curator So if I put the hashtag on a photo post with no information... there will be some way that alt text will be applied?

@CrowquillGal @Curator

I like this explanation. Thank you.

As I've been trying to write more (and better) Alt-Text, I'm beginning to think of it as another genre of micro-writing with specific contours and requirements as related to the purpose.

It's fun to write that way.

@StevePeterson @CrowquillGal @Curator exactly. I use ALT text as a writing exercise.

@mckra1g @CrowquillGal @Curator
Yes! I think the practice is really interesting as a way of thinking/“seeing”

If it isn’t too much bother, I am curious what you have learned from the exercise.

@StevePeterson all false modesty aside, I’m not sure if I’ve learned anything, per se. Since I have a media background, I’ve been trained/conditioned to paint word pictures. I also love writing haiku, which gives me an oppty to choose words that conform to a strict syllabic construct while conveying meaning/an impression.

@Curator I find it strange that someone would not want to explain the meaning of their work. You see art isn’t meant to be difficult and impenetrable and a struggle for people to understand. It is meant to convey a message. Alt text is of course essential to say to screen reader users what the picture of the text is and what the message is

@Curator
I find that adding alt-text improves MY appreciation of my pics

@dannykean No, it's a call for the community to provide the text in a reply to the post.

@jonahstein @jerry @Curator @paulligas point 1 has already been addressed. For point 2, add the Alt4Me hashtag and people following it will help write the alt text.

@Curator
Also, I don't think anyone expects artists to describe things pixel by pixel, but if you make abstract art, for instance, why not name colours, say something general about the work: where & when you made it, what mood drove you & how the resulting piece worked/works for you.
Talk about materials, size, what you think would be the best place to hang it.

There are so many things you can share, in so many ways.
Not doing so is to say, 'Fuck off, you're not welcome here.'

@Curator isn't that entirely up to the artist, though?

An artist, in my view, has no obligation to make their art accessible to everyone. Not IRL, nor digital. If an artist feels it detracts from their vision of the art to make it accessible, isn't that tradeoff entirely theirs to make?

@berkes @Curator

"My art should only be accessible to non visually impared people"

Seems kinda shit?

@berkes it is up to the artist to decide whether they want to be an asshole or not, yes. but as @Curator points out, saying “I don’t want to explain my art” is not an excuse for not including alt-text, because alt text doesn’t *explain* the image, it *describes* it. those are different things.

@slevelt @Curator do you think an artist who makes art only partly accessible is an asshole?

What about an artist that puts her paintings up in, say, a gallery in Strasbourg. Making it inaccessible to 99% of the world, is she an asshole? Is an artist who places a statue in a private home an asshole? Is a singer who refuses to write down their music an asshole?

@slevelt @berkes @Curator Thanks, Slevelt. This was the realization for me: description != explanation.

@Curator @berkes ha you must be delusional if you think you’re going to drag me into your nonsense by sealioning. have a nice evening!

@berkes @slevelt @Curator they have every right not to use alt text. However, if one of their goals is to expand the market or audience for their work, a large percentage of Mastodon users (myself included) specifically will not boost images w/o alt text.

@slevelt it's always from the instances we have blocked/silenced, confirming why they're blocked/silenced in the first place

@berkes @slevelt @Curator

It's not "making art only partly accessible", it's "making art accessible only to a privileged subset of society".

@berkes @slevelt @Curator an artist who claims that making their art more accessible ruins the art is (acting as) an asshole.

an artist who makes their art less accessible because doing so gives them a practical advantage, or because making the art more accessible would require an effort that they can't provide (for various reasons) is not acting like an asshole.

@berkes @slevelt @Curator
Wrong comparison, I think.
If we see Mastodon as a community, or at least a shared place for people to meet, it's more like taking something to that gathering to show to others and saying, 'This is only for some of us here; the rest can fuck off'.
Obviously, any artist is free to do what they want, when it comes to sharing - but others are equally free to conclude: If that's your attitude, I don't want to engage with you.

@Jantar @slevelt @Curator

"I don't want to engage with you" is a fine conclusion. And the way a decentralized system works. A respectful and proper way to keep your timeline the way you like it.

But it's very different from "there's that person doing things I don't like. Shame! They should change and adhere to how I think stuff must be done! Or else!" Because that's (close to) bullying. And very much against the spirit of decentralization.

@Curator Is your helpdescribe emoji OK to use on other instances? What is the license for that emoji? Thanks!

@wohali Hi! See our about page at https://mastodon.art/about for the credit for that one, you can ping them to ask to use it ^.^

@Curator 👍
4x “but what about [adds nonsense example that is only tangentially similar to what the conversation is about]” is definitely a certain type of attitude

@slevelt Haha yep

@RPBook @jerry @Curator @paulligas
FWIW, I searched for #Alt4Me and found 2 instance of it being used on a post. This doesn't me the hashtag approach is a failure but IMO, if we really want to enable alt text on every image, then having better tools will help a LOT.

@jonahstein @RPBook @jerry @paulligas What do you mean by 'enable'? Everyone is technically 'able' to add alt text to every image. The only limitation is that person's will/desire/energy levels/etc. What Alt4Me does is alerts the community that you'd like someone else to write the text for you; you can also just ask after posting the image, 'can someone please write alt text for me'. Then if/when someone does, you edit your post to add it to the media.

@Curator another consideration: in much of the world, the Internet sucks.

Your alt-text can help people to decide whether it’s even worth trying to download your image.

@Curator @RPBook @jerry @paulligas
I am imagining a mechanism where image alt text can be proposed and subject to crowd voting.

Ideally, the originator could them approve the text and have automatically edited.

IDK the best way to accomplish technically but perhaps it is a feature that can be invoked by images w/out alt text.

Also, instead of using a hashtag, maybe it could be invoked by replying to @AltText, similar to how @threadUnroll can be invoked.

To avoid spamming and other bade actors, perhaps it could be invoked at an instance level?

@Curator

i did a whole post about this bc
i do alt text but i am not good at it and its very difficult for me bc of damage to my visual cortex i am not able to visualize which is necessary for a lot of writing/reading. does anyone know of an app i could use for this?
this was my post:
https://haunted.computer/@zutalorz/109893277499010724

@zutalorz An app for what, writing the alt text? Nothing I know of, it would have to be something using AI image recognition probably . But you don't need an app, you can just ask the community - when you post an image, just say 'can someone provide alt text please', or see the other options at the bottom of https://mastodon.art/@Curator/109279041824961297 :)

@Curator @RPBook @jerry @paulligas

One more detail. Yes, anyone is "able" to add alt text but we are not prompted to do so whenever we upload and image; at least not for any of the instances I post on.

It should be relatively trivial to expand the upload dialogue box to include a field for alt text. This change would make a substantial difference both because of the constant reminder and because it isn't clear HOW TO ADD ALT TEXT in every instance.

Interesting, when I edit the post, I am given the opportunity to add a description but it is not clear in the UX that this is Alt Text.

@Curator also, google uses alt text when indexing

@Curator

I have just started to post photos. I use alt-text function.mostly I just describe the photos.

I shall continue to try to better both!

@NoctisEqui Just had a look at the alt text on your recent pics - they're good! <3

@I_Like_Books yep! :D

@Curator

Wait. I'M supposed to know what the picture I made means before I post it?!

D'oh!! :o